Debate Cheat Sheet: Roman Catholicism
- Bible Brian
- 3 hours ago
- 15 min read
One of Bible Brain's many purposes is to be an armory for the Church to collect from as they wage spiritual warfare against demonic strongholds (2 Corinthians 10:3-6). To that end, this article is one of a series dedicated to giving significantly shorter responses to the "scammer script" you are very likely to encounter from a given group. See the introductory article to the series for a full explanation of what that actually means.
This particular article is designed to respond to arguments commonly presented by Roman Catholics.
Catholic claim to fame
Brief summary of the argument:
Official Catholic teaching is that the criteria for the Biblical canon is the infallible declaration of the Catholic Church. It is suggested that defying the authority of the Catholic Church, therefore, deprives the Bible of the authority it historically received from the Church. Therefore, you cannot logically use the Bible to refute the Catholic Church, for the same reason you can't use a fish to disprove the ocean. For a more detailed, less "cheat sheet" refutation of this argument, click here.
Most common forms:
"Jesus didn't give us the Bible, He gave us the Church. The Church gave us the Bible." (Full article).
"There was no Bible for 400 years!"
"What did the Church use before the Bible?" (Full article).
"Who compiled your Bible?"
"We gave you the Bible."
"Which came first, the Bible or the Church?" (Full article).
"Your Bible is based on my Church."
Underlying flaws:
This argument fails on several major levels. It fails historically, since the canon was formed before the Catholic Church, and the books themselves obviously existed even before the canon was complete. It is not theologically true, since Scripture is "theopneustos" (θεόπνευστος), i.e. God-breathed, even according to Catholic doctrine. Therefore, to claim they are required to give it authority, they must assert that God's authority is dependent on them, which is blasphemy. It is not logically sound, given that even if it was true that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible, it wouldn't magically change the content within it, or the fact that this content is decisively opposed to Catholicism. The argument is also a catch-all red herring, since it is almost always brought up as an attempt to distract from whatever topic is actually being discussed. Finally, we can add circular reasoning to the mix, given that one must first assume Catholic authority in order to grant the argument. This is especially the case when you consider that Christians reject the Catholic canon, preferring the Hebraic canon used by the Jews in Jesus' day (including Christ and His own disciples), and rejecting the only books Catholic authority is actually required to canonise.
Quick responses:
"Actually, the Father gave to the Son, who gave to the Holy Spirit, who gave to the Apostles, who wrote the Scriptures." (See John 7:16, Matthew 11:27, John 16:14, and 2 Timothy 3:16-17).
"You're claiming to be the Apostolic Church, yet it took you 400 years to recognise the Apostles' own words?"
"Thank you for admitting your traditions don't date back to the first century. Scripture does. Let's discuss that instead."
"Scripture existed centuries before there was a Catholic Church to protest."
"According to the Jewish Apostle Paul, who was appointed by the Jewish Messiah, it was the Jewish people who were entrusted with the word of the Jewish God." (See Romans 3:1-2).
"We both agree on the God-breathed authority of 66 books. If your Church cannot survive their scrutiny, it is not holy."
"Do you seriously not recognise the obvious blasphemy in claiming God's words only have authority if your Church grants it?"
Matthew 16:18 - Argument from the rock/keys
Brief summary of the argument:
Catholics argue, as has been official Catholic teaching since First Vatican Council (1869-70 A.D.), that Matthew 16:18 is the moment their Church was founded. Since Peter is the rock upon which Christ founded His Church, all Christians must be united under his authority, and any denomination not directly united with the Roman Pontiff is necessarily an impostor.
Most common forms:
"Jesus said Peter is the rock upon which His Church is founded."
"Our Church was founded in 33 A.D., yours was founded after 1500."
"Jesus gave the keys to Peter!"
Underlying flaws:
Contrary to the "infallible" declaration of First Vatican Council, this is actually a developing interpretation. Historically, there were 4 common interpretations of who, or what, the rock is: Jesus, all the Apostles, Peter alone, or Peter's testimony in verse 14. Ironically, even Augustine of Hippo, while he initially understood it to be Peter, later retracted this and claimed Jesus to be the rock. This, he followed up with "but let the reader decide which of the two interpretations is more probable". No modern Catholic is allowed to say this. Thus, however we interpret "the rock", we can say with absolute certainty that it cannot be the Papacy as it is understood today. Peter was never seen as the Pope, either during his life, or in the first two centuries of Christianity. In fact, Paul himself said he was inferior to the Apostles in nothing (2 Corinthians 11:5; 12:11), meaning it is 100% impossible for Peter to be superior to the other Apostles, whether separately, or as a whole. (See full article).
Quick responses:
"There is a considerable difference between rock and Pope."
"‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter." (When the Catholic objects and calls this a modern Protestant innovation, reveal that it is a direct quote from Augustine).
"Paul was inferior to Peter in nothing, so Peter was superior to Paul in nothing."
"Almost identical language is used for the other Apostles 2 chapters later, showing Apostolic equality." (See Matthew 18:18).
Argument from denominational plurality
Brief summary of the argument:
In its most robust form, this argument asserts that Scripture is insufficient in and of itself, which is why Protestant denominations, which of course are distinguished (at least in part) by Sola Scriptura, are denominationally fragmented. Thus, an authoritative body is required in order to settle the disputes.
Most common forms:
"If Jesus prayed for His Church to be one, as He and the Father are one, explain why there are 30,000 Protestant denominations."
"Protestants relying on their own private interpretations is why there are 40,000 Protestant denominations."
"Christ established one holy, Apostolic, visible Church, not 50,000 denominations."
"If the Bible was so clear, you wouldn't have 60,000 Protestant denominations."
Underlying flaws:
This, first of all, is a double exaggeration. It exaggerates both the number of denominations that exist, and the differences between them. In reality, even if we group all nominally Christian denominations together by their theological distinctives, it is difficult to breach even 500. Ironically, the same "studies" that claim umpteen thousand "Protestant" denominations also claim 200 Catholic denominations, which no Catholic would ever accept as legitimate. There is no escape route Catholics can take to remove the 199 denominations that Christians can't use to remove the cults, pseudo-Christian denominations, and denominations that are so fundamentally opposed to Reformation principles that it's not really fair to call them "Protestant". If Catholics don't have to acknowledge Sedevacantism as a Catholic denomination, we don't have to accept Mormons as "Protestant". Furthermore, the argument is circular, because it assumes Catholicism is the default. If any other denomination tried this, they would be justifiably laughed out of the room. So should Catholicism.
Quick responses:
"One word: Sedevacantists."
"That makes you 40,001." (Full article).
"Protestants disagree on Scripture for the same reason Catholics disagree with Scripture." (Full article).
"You can't say only one denomination can be right, therefore it's ours."
"The flaw is in man, not Scripture."
Matthew 16:18 - Argument from perseverance
Brief summary of the argument:
There are two ways Catholic apologists argue from Matthew 16:18. The first can be seen above. The second is to point out that Jesus says "the gates of Hell shall not prevail" against His Church. This is interpreted to mean the Catholic Church cannot be defeated. Therefore, since the Reformation not only failed to overcome the Catholic Church, but also Catholics still outnumber Protestants, the Catholic Church must be Christ's enduring Church.
Most common forms:
"Jesus said the gates of Hell shall not prevail against His Church, and we're still here."
"Still winning globally."
"The Reformation failed to overcome us."
Underlying flaws:
There are three main issues with this argument. First, it anachronistically inserts the Catholic Church into Jesus' words. If we do not first assume this interpretation of the verse, it becomes possible for Christ's Church to exist alongside the Catholic Church, just as Catholics obviously believe they exist alongside other denominations. Second, it over-focuses on the term "shall not prevail against", without accounting for the fact Jesus speaks about the gates of Hell. Gates are not offensive weapons, but defensive structures. So, Jesus is actually framing Hell as the defender. In other words, the Church is being geared for an assault, setting people free from Hell with the Gospel, which of course is founded on the actual rock of Peter's testimony "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16). The final and most obvious flaw is that truth is not a Democracy. False religions rise and fall, but as Jesus says, "“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14). In other words, mere numbers are not evidence that you are on the narrow and hard way leading to life, and may actually be evidence that you aren't.
Quick responses:
"How many soldiers march into battle with gates in their scabbards?"
"How many of you are actually on the narrow road that leads to eternal life?"
"Truth is not a Democracy."
"I'd rather be in the 7,000 who would not bow the knee to Baal." (See 1 Kings 19:18 and Romans 11:4).
Argument from history
Brief summary of the argument:
This argument suggests that Catholicism goes back as far as the first century, when Christ founded His Church upon Peter, and its traditions have remained the same since that time. By contrast, Protestants invented new doctrines that can be traced back a maximum of 500 years, to the Reformation.
Most common forms:
"To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." (Full article).
"For the first 1500 years of Church history..." (Full article).
"The early Church believed..."
Underlying flaws:
The argument relies primarily on cherry picked (and often severely misrepresented) data, as well as the joint ignorance of both Catholics who use it, and non-Catholics against whom it is used. For Catholics, it is accepted uncritically, and regurgitated without hesitation. For Christians, there isn't often much urgency to study history beyond Scripture, making them "easy targets". But an argument requiring ignorance is no argument at all. Furthermore, it is demonstrably false. Aside from many "Protestant" beliefs being traceable to before the Reformation (including, of course, the Bible), Catholicism is entirely absent from the first two centuries, and shows consistent evolution since its inception. This is to the extent that, ironically, the same Cardinal Newman responsible for the "deep in history" quote also formulated the theory of Development of Doctrine in an attempt to explain this dramatic evolution. The final and most obvious problem is the way in which it divorces Scripture from the rest of history. In reality, Scripture is both the earliest and most authoritative source on Church history, written by the very hands of the Apostles, as they were guided by God Himself. Thus, by going to any other source, Catholics are inadvertently admitting that their beliefs come from elsewhere.
Quick responses:
"The historical argument is favored where the Biblical argument is weak."
"Catholics wouldn't know history if a strange man shoved them in a blue police box and took them to see it themselves." [This is a Doctor Who reference, and may not land with all audiences.] (Full article).
"The Bible is the oldest and most authoritative source on Church history."
"Why must I listen to Pope Leo, but not "Pope" Peter?" (Full article).
"If you really believe you're following Apostolic tradition, why can't you find it in the Apostolic writings?"
"Post-Biblical arguments demonstrate you have post-Biblical beliefs."
Arguments from Luther
Brief summary of the argument/s:
As the most prominent figure of the Reformation, it is common for Catholics to appeal to Luther in some way. This takes many forms, most of which portray Luther in some negative light. Very often, it is slander, but as Luther was a genuinely imperfect individual (i.e. human), he did also have some theological flaws. Luther did also retain some of his Catholic indoctrination following his excommunication, meaning Catholics occasionally attempt to leverage his (perceived) authority to convince Christians to accept a particular dogma.
Most common forms:
"Even Luther believed..."
"Luther lost his debate at Leipzig".
"Luther said he wanted to throw the book of James into the fire."
"Luther removed a bunch of books from the Bible."
"All Protestant denominations were started by one man."
Underlying flaws:
The fundamental flaw here is the assumption upon which the argument is built: That "Protestant" doctrines depend on Luther's authority. Ironically, a lot of the same arguments used against Luther can be used against at least one Pope, yet they conveniently fail when this is tried. Luther holds far less authority in Christianity than the Pope does in Catholicism, and so any argument that would fail against the Pope fails doubly against Luther. Ultimately, Luther is 100% irrelevant, since Christianity is based on the Scriptures. As Luther had no hand in writing those, you can ignore him entirely and still draw similar conclusions. In fact, Luther promoted such similar views to his predecessor, Jan Hus, that when Luther found out about him, he declared "we are all Hussites unawares". Interestingly, Hus appears to have foreseen Luther, as his final words were "You are now going to cook this goose, but in 100 years, you will have a swan you can neither catch, nor boil."
Quick responses:
"Gotta love how Luther still lives rent free in your head 500 years later."
"Luther means more to you than he ever has to me."
"My views are not based on Luther, they are based on the Bible."
"Any argument that should fail on your Popes should fail on the Reformers."
"Luther wasn't even the first Protestant, he was just the swan you couldn't boil."
Interpretations without interpreters
Brief summary of the argument:
The Catholic Church frames itself as the only legitimate authority on religious matters. It is impermissible to interpret the Bible in a way contrary to official Catholic teaching. This is supposed to help protect against the heresies that arise from what they call "private interpretations". This is occasionally backed up by 2 Peter 1:20, which says "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,".
Most common forms:
"You have no authority, so your interpretation is worthless."
"2 Peter 1:20 speaks against private interpretations." (Full article).
"You make yourself Pope!" (Full article).
"You're worshiping the Bible instead of Christ." (Full article).
Underlying flaws:
The logic behind this argument is quite unique, which is the first clue that it's a bad one. There is no other book in the world that one needs "authority" to interpret. This is because they consist of things called "words", which, when strung together, form sentences, which are designed to convey the thoughts of the author to the reader. This does not mean error is impossible, but it does mean, as Irenaeus said, that one does not need tradition to extract truth from the Scriptures. Furthermore, adding an "authoritative interpreter" does not solve the problem of misinterpretation. It merely adds a source to interpret. One may either interpret the Bible like the book it is, or interpret someone else's interpretation. Ironically, the division within the Catholic Church demonstrates this, as even Catholic bishops differ on their religion.
Quick responses:
"The Bible is a book. I read it like one."
"The Bible is sufficient, that doesn't mean I am sufficient." - Mike Winger
"You will always be your own final interpreter, it's just a question of how many middle men you put between you and the Bible." (Full article).
"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith." (When the Catholic objects to this "Protestant interpretation", reveal that this comes from Irenaeus.) (Full article).
"Only heretics allege that the Bible is ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition." (When the Catholic objects, repeat the above point.)
Argument from James 2
Brief summary of the argument:
Catholics argue that James 2 is the absolute death knell of Sola Fide, since it emphasises the importance of works, and the inseparable nature of faith and works. It twice asserts that "faith, without works, is dead" (v20, 26), and verse 24 is even the only verse in the Bible where the words "faith alone" actually appear. Yet, it is in the negative sense: "not by faith alone". Therefore, by Catholic reckoning, salvation cannot be by faith alone.
Most common forms:
"The only time the Bible says anything about faith alone is when James 2:24 says justification is not by faith alone."
"Faith without works is dead."
Underlying flaws:
As a general rule, if you're limited to one chapter to "prove" your point, but your opponent has free reign throughout the rest of Scripture, you're interpreting your one chapter wrong. This is the case with Sola Fide, which is literally taught all over Scripture (including James 2). The main reasons Catholics believe otherwise are that they don't understand Sola Fide, and they don't understand the difference between salvation and justification. Justification is a declaration, which is why "...wisdom is justified by all her children." (Luke 7:35), and "...even the tax collectors justified God..." (Luke 7:29). Salvation is the actual process of ensuring someone is in Heaven who, otherwise, would not be. This is why God justifies the ungodly apart from, and actually in spite of, works (Romans 4:3-8). No sane Christian believes that because we are saved by faith apart from works, therefore we do not justify ourselves by working out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is unfathomable to us. Ironically, even the term "works" matters here. When Scripture repeatedly asserts that salvation is not by works, Catholics default to "that just means works of the law". But if we are to hold that interpretation consistently and not as a mere escape from the obvious, Catholics must believe we are, in fact, justified by works of the law, and must therefore be circumcised.
Quick responses:
"Which is more likely? That we're misunderstanding 66 books, or that you're misunderstanding one?"
"If James 2 was the only chapter in the Bible, I could agree with your interpretation, but I prefer the interpretation that does not depend on James 2 being the only chapter in the Bible." (Full article).
"No Christian believes that since we don't need works for salvation, we don't need works at all."
"Why pit James against all the other Scriptures?"
"Unless you believe tax collectors decide whether or not God gets into Heaven, you really have to distinguish between "justified" and "saved".
"Whenever the Bible says "not of works", you conveniently interpret that as works of the law. Since you're now saying we are justified by works after all, snip snip..."
Persuasion by personal testimony
Brief summary of the argument:
This is not unique to the Catholic Church, as every major group tends to have some form of "I used to think like you". In this case, Catholics will often say something along the lines of "I came to the Catholic Church kicking and screaming". This gives the impression that attempts to refute the Catholic Church are ultimately futile, and that anyone who seriously studies it will come to accept it.
Most common forms:
"I came to the Catholic Church kicking and screaming".
"I used to think like you."
Underlying flaws:
This strategy is not an argument, but a flex. As stated above, it gives the impression that all arguments against Catholicism ultimately fail, but it never actually deals with them. In fact, more often than not, it is an attempt to avoid doing so. Almost every time I've heard it (and it's eerie how often they use the exact phrase "kicking and screaming"), it has followed either a direct and specific argument, or a concluding statement thereof. Ironically (though also anecdotally), I also find those who claim to be ex-Protestants are significantly less capable of arguing their case than those who were Catholics from the cradle. One would think it would be the other way around. An ex-Protestant would know both how Catholic arguments tend to sound to us, and what, precisely, they needed to hear to convince them. Thus, if an ex-Protestant simply spits out the same arguments and sprinkles in the occasional "I used to think like you", that's strong evidence that they never actually did.
Quick responses:
"Then you should have no problem presenting an actual argument for why I should also become Catholic."
"Now tell me why I should think like you."
Extra Notes
Catholic apologetics depends very heavily on ego. Rather than reason vs. reason, as all debates should be, they see it as an issue of authority vs. authority. Specifically, their Church is seen as being uniquely authoritative, and anything contrary to it is devoid of authority, no matter how reasonable. This affects not only how they interpret the Bible, but also how they interpret Church history. It is a good idea, therefore, to study Church history. Not only does this give you an advantage, since Catholics rarely study history as thoroughly as they boast, but it also allows you to utilise the silent quote strategy. Whenever you quote a Church "Father" without telling them you're quoting anyone, you present them with an opportunity to disagree with an authority upon whom they claim to rely. Once this is exposed, the illusion is shattered. You not only prove that you know what you're talking about, but that they don't. This should, in theory, return the discussion to reason vs. reason. From here, return to the Bible, and show that the Christian faith was not originally Roman Catholic.
AI usage
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